Curse

Ensign · Feb 07, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I fully agree with Ensign that VoD now seems like a far too complex affair with multiple changes and additions bodged on, but it is still has the potential to be a lot better than it was before.

It has the potential to be better than before because there have been some positive changes as well as the negative ones. If the bad changes get thrown out, VoD will be in better shape.

To go over them briefly:

Removing the health penalty from VoD: Positive change. The health penalty disproportionately rewarded spike teams and made any accumulated DP even more crushing than it was before. Now spikes are back on par with all other damage, and teams that have taken several deaths are not knocked out of the game instantly by VoD.

Guild Lord AI update: Positive change. The unpredictable behavior of the Guild Lords could end up being a big inequity between the two teams; one Guild Lord may be happily plinking archers with a bow while the opposing Guild Lord beasts him with his Axe. Guild Lord behavior is much more even and predictable now.

Archer AI update: Enormous positive update. The single biggest problem with VoD was the AoE farming of archers when they balled on their way to the flag stand. Removing that as a dominant option places a much higher priority on archers killed before VoD.

NPC skill update: Minor positive change. The skills added help counteract some of the most common counters to masses of NPCs; while minor, the addition evens out the impact of the NPCs by making block effects softer counters to NPC balls.

Increased NPC damage: Bad idea. NPCs do plenty of damage as is; additional damage is only de-emphasizing player contributions and unduly emphasizing archer fire. Players should determine the outcome of a game, not NPCs. Increasing NPC damage simply takes players further out of the game as time goes on at VoD, the exact opposite of what you would want - an increasingly dangerous game where more and more pressure is put on the players and their actions, not those of the NPCs.

"Victory is Ours!": Atrocious idea. GvG is a game of incremental advantages. Giving one team an enormous advantage during the deciding minutes of a game because of a small advantage they might have earned is ridiculous. More importantly, like the above, it is an attempt to solve a non-problem. The NPCs are important enough, the issue was with how easily they were farmed. This was directly addressed with a good, direct solution by updating Archer AI, and incidentally addressed by removing the HP penalty from VoD. These are now unnecessary kludges that are doing more harm than good.

Other changes to consider:

Moving back the time the Guild Lord walks from 20:00 to 21:00. Right now the value of the split at VoD is simply as a draw to pull people away from the stand; you can't really win the game off of a split, because even if you do win they res just in time to escort the Lord. If you do manage to wipe a split after time, leaving the Lord vulnerable, you have to intercept it while walking to be able to do anything. Leaving the Lord vulnerable in the base a bit longer would allow more time for an aggressive split strategy at VoD to be effective and potentially win the game.

Letting the Lords engage at the stand even if the other Lord hasn't finished his walk. Right now it's possible on many maps to simply aggro the Guild Lord during his march, and make the other team's victory at the stand irrelevant because your own Guild Lord will not engage the NPCs until their Guild Lord completes his walk; 8v8 can essentially be forced indefinitely if you can catch it in time. Letting the Lord walk in regardless will at least force a defensive character back to defend the Lord from the NPCs, but more practically removes the ability to stall the inevitable confrontation indefinitely.

The rules of GvG were pretty good before all of these updates started. They did not need a serious revamping with a bunch of new mechanics. VoD is supposed to force confrontation and to make people kill each other one way or another. It's not a complicated goal and doesn't need obscure solutions - it needs simple, straightforward mechanics that let people simply fight without a bunch of esoteric crap getting in the way.

Kattar · Feb 07, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanishka

Hey, who's the Mesmer-hater in there, aNet? Give us his name!

Hehe, his name is Andrew. JUST KIDDING!

But I think the reason Anet nerfs things like PLeak is to get people away from the current meta. It's to encourage players to use different things from time to time so, as I think I heard Izzy say once, "the game won't get stale." I'm going to try to look at this as an opportunity to expand my horizons skill wise. Maybe the community at large should do the same thing?

I'm also kinda surprised that someone hasn't found another skill to latch onto and use til Anet nerfs that as well.

Shuuda · Feb 07, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

1) Power Leak nerf is ridiculous.

Ok, you want to tone it down a little. Don't take crack then and put it at -14 @ 12r, or -19 @ 20r.

What is this utter ruination of a staple dom mes skill supposed to achieve? If you want to bring a dom mes into gvg the 2 skills that gave that template its power were Diversion and Power Leak. None of the other interrupts have comparable power. A random 100 dmg from power spike doesn't cut it, and for frequency, you can take this on a paragon and be done with it. Power Lock is weak as well, the disabling effect is next to negligible. I have seen people trying these skills as replacements, but it's just too weak. Remember, these mesmer live by their regular skills, none of their elites are worth their name.

In my view, dom mesmers are becoming irrelevant fast with such a harsh change and candidates for replacement; most likely by a skillless motigon SoR singer with Power Spike and Mirror. You're basically sacrificing a diversion here and there for constant spear-chucking and party-wide defenses.

In my view, a domination mes is one of the coolest aspects of GW pvp, the unique combination of difficulty and reward involved in playing this disruptive role is amazing. The emotional response of people who moan about getting interrupted is actually a side effect of this: It's way worse to get thwarted by someone who is predicting you and who is fast to react to your moves, than it is by being, say, hex-stacked. In the first case, the opponent really got you down, which means the weakness is you (too predictable, can't fake-cast, etc). In the second case it was just a "you can't do anything about it" situation, and therefore you are not to blame. That's more comfortable, and thus a preferred scenario for many. Don't listen to these sore losers. Don't destroy the domination template.

Lets face it, if Mesmers rely 50% of all shutdown on an interruption, then there is clearly a problem. Interrupting shouldn't be the strongest or most important aspect of a build, since it take less skill and is less interesting than most other forms of shutdown. Im glad A-net nerfed this skill, but I do wish they could have improved some of the none interruption based E-denial, or just promote other kinds of shutdown in general.

Quote:

I absolutely agree. Mesmers are already useless in PvE... do you (aNet)

Lol, and who in this topic gives that much of a shit? PvE is piss easy man.

Elrodien · Feb 07, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Fantastic analysis of the VoD mechanic Ensign!

I have to say, looking at the updates, it was more or less what people were asking for. Buffs to party-wide healing allowing for more agressive bars in midline, nerfs to Sineptitude ( via the hex-breaker, Ineptitude and Clumsiness updates ) and even a buff that give us a viable (maybe) Dervish alternative.

The blood-sac skills change is interesting and can maybe form the basis of new bars although I have a sneaky feeling they will be abused very quickly.

Looking at some comments in this thread people are reacting out of habit and not actually looking at the skill update properly. Its not a bad skill update. Its what most people who want the game to be fun wanted. Ok, pleak was murdered but I'm sure they will change it back to a reasonable level again ( 12 energy leaked at 14 Dom?).

I also agree with Ensign's deliberations on the VoD update - the Victory Is Mine shout just seemed wrong to me straight away. It falls right into the hands of the lolsin split and I for one don't think spending 18 minutes stuck in my base protecting archers is fun.

So, some issues for sure, but all in all, a decent update imo.

Lorekeeper · Feb 07, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

I would echo Ensigns words concerning VoD to the letter... the Victory is Ours mechanic clumsily breaks any form of good progress made by recent AI updates. The problem was that gaining an NPC advantage before VoD meant very little when your army of NCPs could be farmed with splinter weapon at VoD assuming the team without NPCs could reach them.

That problem would be solved through AI pathfinding and failing that hitting splinter weapon and arage. Apparently it was possible to fix the NPC AI to force them to spread out more... in which case the issue with NPCs at VoD is solved (assuming the AI fix actually works).

NPC had always been an attractive bonus on the flag stand fight at VoD, every bit of extra damage whether it be from knights or from archers or the bodyguard helped wipe opposing teams without NPCs. There was NO need for all this special bonus damage...

Global 25% dmg buff to both teams is an equitable solution to encouraging VoD to be a point in the match where a resolution would be made...

But the added 15% dmg buff for teams who might only have 1 more archer than the other is far too arbitrary, and complicated a mechanic to have to manage...

I know Victory is Ours is meant to encourage teams to kill NPCs before VoD... but any good team worth their GvGing salt would already be considering this if not for the ease at which NPCs get farmed at VoD with splinter weapon.

Please make sure the AI update works properly, and maybe tweak some more skills to allow more flexible skirmish templates (eg heal sig and mending touch).

The buff to party healing was nice... although im not so sure LoD will come back into dominance at least it is more viable than before (im all for having a variety of options to consider).

And as a result of this buff i think people will shift away from their focus towards the 8vs8 confrontation... to a more fluid approach to GvG.

And that has been missing at all levels for a while now, GvG had become to resemble the staticness of HA fights with far less tactical flexibility being displayed by the majority of teams and little opportunity for people to show off their experience at improvisation and skirmish ability.

In conclusion

* remove ''Victory is Ours!'' mechanic - or change it so that you gain a 1% damage bonus for every extra NPC you have above the opposing team. And max it out at 10% or 15%

* make mending touch remove 1...2...3 conditions from target ally (2 conditions at 8 protection prayers)

* reduce armour penalty from healing signet by half

* revert GoE to 10s recharge

* find compromise in energy loss for power leak... between extremely powerful and extremely useless (maybe -12 at 14 dom)

* revert Song of Restoration to old healing numbers or increase energy cost to 10e or even 15e

* increase healing done by divine healing and heavens delight to around 60-80 health.

* increase healing done by LoD and reintroduce the 80% mechanic OR reduce recharge to 7s

* troll unguent reduce activation to 2s revert duration to 10s and reduce health regeneration bonus by 1 pip

* Mending grip - reduce cast time to 3/4 or 1/2s and recharge to 5s

* Weapon of Remedy - increase cast time to 1/2s or 3/4

* armour of mist - reduce armour buff but increase duration and reduce casting time to 3/4s

* Shield of Deflection - reduce duration and recharge to 7s

* aegis - enchantment also ends for each ally if that ally successfully blocks 2...4...5 attacks (5 at 14 prot 4 at 12 prot 3 at 9 prot)

* aura of stability - target ally is immune to the next 1...2...3 knockdowns this enchantment lasts for 10 seconds.

* rampage as one - reduce attack speed buff to 25%

Dodo The Extinct · Feb 07, 2008, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Lets face it, if Mesmers rely 50% of all shutdown on an interruption, then there is clearly a problem. Interrupting shouldn't be the strongest or most important aspect of a build, since it take less skill and is less interesting than most other forms of shutdown. Im glad A-net nerfed this skill, but I do wish they could have improved some of the none interruption based E-denial, or just promote other kinds of shutdown in general.

Inturrupts require more skill than hitting E-Surge. They should be more powerful than reguler shutdown because they have a chance of completely missing. It needs to be a measure of risk/reward. Right now, Power Leak has been smashed by a hammer into a thousand pieces. I could possibly see a small nerf, but this is an example of over-nerfing imo.

Quote:

Power Lock is weak as well, the disabling effect is next to negligible.

Power Lock doesn't suck at all. People just didn't use it because depriving people of Energy is better than depriving them of a certain skill usually. However, now that Power Leak is gone (RiP) it might see more play.

Divinus Stella · Feb 07, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

''Victory is Ours!'' was a bad idea, i think it needs to go.

I would also like to see them remove all damage buffs from NPC's at VoD, i really dont think splitting should just be about farming NPC's for 18minutes but more about gaining ground on the opponent.

At the moment you can completely gimp your build into a pure split and the NPC's will entirely make up for the fact that your build is incredibly weak at VoD.

Splitting worked in the past because you would have to sacrifice 8v8 power in exchange for some counterplay before VoD, trying to take down NPC's but also aiming to get some DP on the opponent, at VoD your build would be weaker but depending on how successful the split was you would have eaten into the enemy teams signets and and left them with some DP.
But now its just all about teleporting into the enemy base when they are looking and picking off a few archers so that when VoD hits you have an army of buffed NPC's to just destroy everything.

Cass · Feb 07, 2008, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Lets face it, if Mesmers rely 50% of all shutdown on an interruption, then there is clearly a problem. Interrupting shouldn't be the strongest or most important aspect of a build, since it take less skill and is less interesting than most other forms of shutdown. Im glad A-net nerfed this skill, but I do wish they could have improved some of the none interruption based E-denial, or just promote other kinds of shutdown in general.

In general: Interrupting was/is NOT the "strongest or most important" aspect of a dom mes build. It is however _strong_, and taking it away weakens the whole bar to such an extent that the remaining skills (which are also important) are possibly not enough to justify taking a dom mes in the first place.

Bold part: Total nonsense. Think about what you claim there.

On Power Lock: It doesn't suck, but it's sufficiently weak that it's not worth taking unless as an addon to an already strong bar. 12 seconds disable of a single skill versus chucking spears, that's the kind of comparison that's relevant.

payne · Feb 07, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

What do you guys think?

• Added "Victory is Ours," a new GvG feature that activates at the same time as Victory or Death, giving players on the team with the most NPCs a 15% damage increase.
Monk
• Light of Deliverance: decreased casting time to 1 second; increased recharge time to 10 seconds.

Dervish
• Avatar of Grenth: duration increased to 10..90 seconds; functionality changed to: "For 10..90 seconds, you cannot be blocked by enchanted foes, and your attacks deal cold damage. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds."

bad on LoD / grenth IMO...
ViO = team with 'sin / ranger split = massive adavantage to now run splits?

pitty_sayonara · Feb 07, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by payne

bad on LoD / grenth IMO...
ViO = team with 'sin / ranger split = massive adavantage to now run splits?

take 5 paragons and 3 monks and kill their npc

Necrotic · Feb 07, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Plague Touch: Nice....guess it will be used more often now.

Some of the sac skills cost only 1 energy now? Great....but still don't really ever use the Blood line.

Not sure about the AoGrenth change....I kinda liked the enchantment removal...but then I don't play my derv much so I'm still learning.

Tul · Feb 07, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

"Victory is Ours!": Atrocious idea. (...)

Other changes to consider:

Moving back the time the Guild Lord walks from 20:00 to 21:00 (...)
Letting the Lords engage at the stand even if the other Lord hasn't finished his walk. (...)

If a team somehow lost the PNJ battle before VoD, with an increased window for this team to go get the opposing Guild Lord in the base before his little walk would it not completely negate the advantage gained by the "split" team ? It was quite often seen in the past and from what I understand the ViO cry is there to address this kind of issue. True at present since the window is indeed pretty small to "gank" the lord there is not much use for a ViO to further the advantage gained with the PNJs. But removing ViO while at the same time increasing the gank window could completely turn the tide in favor of the "heavy" 8v8 team.

Winstar · Feb 07, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I know this is minor compared to the vod issues, but i'd like to mention again that the buff to trolls and heal sig buffed the wrong aspect of the skills. The buff focus on amount heal/duration while problem was not the heal provided but the cast time. For heal sig at least 1 sec with the armor penalty would be fine and bring it in line with nat healing, which if you're going to bring a heal on your bar is likely the heal you bring. I doubt that 1 sec is too great a buff as its not going to make anyone who wasn't going to bring a self heal before bring it now since the standard warrior bar would have to drop, shock, dchop, or rend etc which in most cases is not ideal. If you feel its too strong then bump the recharge to 5 or something. Oh and Please don't bother buffing lions comfort for pvp purposes anyway. I'm pretty sure everyone would rather have a useable non adren based self heal rather than 2 skills neither of which are attractive.

--------

victory is ours is dumb

Master Ketsu · Feb 07, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Update 02/06/08

I lol'd.

Seriously though.

Power leak - new contender for one of the worst skills in the game now.

Troll Unguent - ZOmgtheybuffedtrollunguentwtfbbqLulz

Blood magic changes - I lol'd.

Monk party healing options - I lol'd

Healing signet - ZomgtheybuffedhealsigwtfbbqLulz

VoD changes - lol wut.

ViO - fail. GvG was already more then enough PvE.

niek2004 · Feb 07, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Power Leak: decreased target foe's Energy loss to 1..5.
lol......good joke
Offering of Blood: decreased Energy cost to 1.
another retarded update.
Avatar of Grenth: duration increased to 10..90 seconds; functionality changed to: "For 10..90 seconds, you cannot be blocked by enchanted foes, and your attacks deal cold damage. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds."
why? the enchantment removal was better since evryone packs tons of them.
Protective Was Kaolai: decreased recharge to 15 seconds.
gj promote n/rts more.

just read the VoD changes........all i can say.....

Iotan · Feb 07, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

If Anet is set on keeping Victory is Ours in the game, why not have it give you +% damage based on what your morale is above zero? It would bring back some meaning to the flagstand and would make killing offensive characters more important pre-VoD. It would also cap damage at 10% and allow players on both teams to potentially have it.

Burton2000 · Feb 07, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I don't get why people are complaining about this skill update tbh. Besides power leak which I agree got over nerfed by a lot the update was fairly decent and adressed the issues of ineptitude/party healing.

Snow Bunny · Feb 07, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

* make mending touch remove 1...2...3 conditions from target ally (2 conditions at 8 protection prayers)

* Weapon of Remedy - increase cast time to 1/2s or 3/4

* Shield of Deflection - reduce duration and recharge to 7s

* aegis - enchantment also ends for each ally if that ally successfully blocks 2...4...5 attacks (5 at 14 prot 4 at 12 prot 3 at 9 prot)

I very strongly oppose these 4 suggestions of yours Lorekeeper.

You'd make mending unviable on the Cripshot

WoR very often rewards active protting, as an elite RoF, and should stay at 1/4 cast time.

SoD is fairly fine as it is.

Aegis is a difficult skill to balance effectively and unless there's some serious opposition to my thought here, I feel it's relatively fine as it is.

Other than that, I very much approve your other suggestions.

xhappy feetx · Feb 07, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Please change this ViO function to "For each remaining NPC your party has alive, you gain +X% damage, (i.e. you have 6 NPC's, you get +6% damage) and make it continously update, so that if you kill their NPC's their bonus goes down and vice-versa, also, change VoD to 20:00 and the guild lord walk to 25:00.....

JR · Feb 07, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iotan

If Anet is set on keeping Victory is Ours in the game, why not have it give you +% damage based on what your morale is above zero? It would bring back some meaning to the flagstand and would make killing offensive characters more important pre-VoD. It would also cap damage at 10% and allow players on both teams to potentially have it.

You are talking about a completely different mechanic based on different intentions, not a change to the current one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xhappy feetx

Please change this ViO function to "For each remaining NPC your party has alive, you gain +X% damage, (i.e. you have 6 NPC's, you get +6% damage) and make it continously update, so that if you kill their NPC's their bonus goes down and vice-versa

Having it continuously update would again bring NPC farming back as a viable tactic. Wait till VoD, nuke all of their NPCs, get the damage bonus. To be valuable it needs to be based solely on the count when VoD hits.

Having it on a per NPC basis is also silly, as it will be largely meaningless. It would need to be capped at a reasonable number (say 15%), so even if it was 2% per NPC you would get the entire bonus in most situations.

The best solution is a 3% bonus per exta NPC you have over the opponent, with a 15% cap. You would need to have 5 more (a meaningful number) to get the bonus, but it would still be worth trying to knock a few off during the game to get that edge or even things out. It needs to calculate at VoD and not change after.